Atheists really are cop-out people

The arrogance that atheists simply don't believe Christianity. We don't believe the thousands of other religious myths either. And believers in each of those thousands agree with us on all the others.

That's a critical point that seems to go over the heads of most of the most self-absorbed Christians: That they deny just about as many legitimate religious perspectives as atheists do - that they (the Christians) effectively deny the word of God when they deny Islam, when they deny Hinduism, when they deny Native American religions. Those religions are as valid as theirs - some arguably more valid than theirs - and yet they cast aspersions on atheists for not believing their religion without acknowledging (perhaps not realizing) that they're condemning themselves just as strongly.

Gee, this comment sounds like one big cop out to me.

Your're right and everyone else is wrong.

Why do you need to debate what for you is obvious then?

Oh, that's right you have a message of love to push forward.

Nice way to push the positive message. LOL

You better practice more, you are not getting what you say you want.

I don't know... I think religion is a cop out. It's all, "Hey, I can do whatever the hell I want to! I can murder, rape, pillage, abuse my children and ALL I HAVE TO DO IS ASK FORGIVENESS and off I go to heaven!!"

Here, there is no intelligent argument presented here.

You paint a silly broad brush accusation about athiests and then present nothing but demogogic circles as proofs.

You talk down to folks from a high pulpit you built for yourself.

No argument intended.

Just the facts Jack.

I still say you'd be a believer if you witnessed miracles. In Jesus' day, whether miracles were real, hallucinations or made up, they were necessary for people to make Jesus the idol He is today. Therefore, miracles aren't necessary today because many will believe based on His popularity alone. So, there's great success there. The only thing that's causing the cop-out of atheism to grow is that today's Church is still holding onto its sexual lies in a post-pill world.

Maybe. Some people believed that the Sun was God because they didn't know any freaking better. The reason why atheism is growing today is because people are sick of the hate that churches breed, they're sick of being told how filthy they are and how they don't deserve to breathe and because we do know better than our primitive ancestors.

Once I can convince the Church to be honest, then people WILL start returning to faith, as any honest person can tell that "something intelligent" made and progresses (evolves) with everything.

Ha ha! Good luck with that. They've been preaching ignorance for a very long time. I doubt you'll be able to change that.

No, I'm not stating there that you believe "everything" the authorities tell you. HOW MANY MORE incorrect and irrational assumptions are you people going to insert into my words, as your only basis of argument??? You people either "just say" I'm wrong with no rational explanation, or you "assume" I fit it with other false stereotypes

How ironic that you accuse us of using stereotypes when your entire article is one BIG stereotype!

You have a right to your own opinion but I find this article to be terribly rude.

Yes, most people who witness a bona-fide "holy crap what was that!" miracle would rethink their current beliefs if they didn't include those types of events initially. There are even some Christians who honestly believe that miracles such as those performed in the Bible are not performed in modern times and those miracles were only meant for the people of that time period. They too, would obviously have to rethink their stance, lol.

Perhaps presenting your views with a tad more grace and mercy would go a long way.

.

And that's ALWAYS the problem.

The people who most push an idea are usually the most committed and fanatical about that idea, that's is THE WORST people to present a positive case, because they go on belief, not argument.

Goldenrule, you will convert no one, because YOU get in the way of your message, and OBODY cares about YOU.

And that's ALWAYS the problem.

The people who most push an idea are usually the most committed and fanatical about that idea, that's is THE WORST people to present a positive case, because they go on belief, not argument.

Goldenrule, you will convert no one, because YOU get in the way of your message, and OBODY cares about YOU.

This is how I feel. I hope it will give you some insight into who I am, and what I believe.

A very Christian friend of mine recently asked:
"Which is more detrimental to our lives, the lies we tell or the ones we believe?"
...
This was my response to him. I thought I'd share it with you.

.................................

What is truth, and what is fiction?
No one knows anymore.

That is one of the reasons I reject religion and reject the existence of a god.
Religion was created by people... People lie.
Religion, like politics, is about power and control over others. Power corrupts. Mankind is weak, and easily manipulated by superstition or smooth talking con men.

We want so much to believe in something greater than ourselves that we become easy prey for the wicked.
If people hear the same lie enough times, they will eventually accept it as the truth. Then, those "truths" are passed on to the next generation, and the next, and so on.

Various religions have sought to control us by blind faith, or intimidation, or forced servitude to some all powerful, all knowing, great and merciful, supreme being that is the creator of all things... Yet, there is no proof that such an entity truly exists.
Throughout history... Millions, if not billions of people have been persecuted, prosecuted, enslaved, tortured, mutilated, or killed in the name of this kind, generous and loving "god" or "gods" that teach peace. Countless wars have been fought over religion. Some are still ongoing. It is a vicious cycle.

I am an Atheist, yet I consider myself as being more tolerant than most Christians, Jews or Muslims.
You have the right to believe in what you want to believe, just as I have the right to reject those beliefs.
As long as your religious beliefs do not call upon you to harm others, I will not judge you on your beliefs, and I expect you to not judge me for mine.
Unless we as a people, can learn to be tolerant of others and accept others for who they are, without regard for religion, race, gender, sexual orientation, or any of the other petty differences that separate us... History is doomed to repeat itself. Civilization will fall.
Long ago, the Catholic Church led people to believe that the Earth was the center of the universe, and that all of creation revolved around us. To speak otherwise was blasphemy, and a direct challenge to the authority of the church.
That was proven to be wrong.

People were once led to believe that the Earth was flat, and if you sailed too far away from the land, you would fall into the abyss and be lost forever..
That was proven to be wrong.

What other historical "truths" need to be revised?

I believe there are many truths out there waiting for us to discover.
But, we will not find the truth of our existence until we stop making war with one another and learn to live in peace.

I also believe that the Earth is as insignificant as a single grain of sand on an endless beach.
One simple planet in a vast universe containing trillions of similar planets capable of supporting life. Many of which probably do.
The Human Race must grow out of its infancy before we can take our place in the universe and truly understand the meaning of life, and of creation itself.

That is, IF the Human Race can survive in spite of itself.

We have the capability to do great things, yet we are hindered by superstition, greed, political corruption, and archaic religious beliefs that have been twisted and corrupted over the centuries by men who crave power.

In most religious denominations, the people are taught that the beliefs of that particular religion are right and everyone else is wrong.

People of some religions are taught to hate those that believe differently. To essentially become "thought police".
Religious beliefs are often forced upon people. Sometimes at the point of a gun.
Even questioning the "word of god" in some parts of the world can mean a violent death.
If everyone thinks they alone are right & everyone else is wrong, then perhaps no one is right.
Perhaps the truth has yet to be revealed to us, or perhaps the truth was once there, but it has been distorted so much that it will never be known as truth again.

Again I ask... "What is truth, and what is fiction?"

Does a god exist? I have no idea.
If there ever was truth in the concept of a "god entity" it has been destroyed by many centuries of religious dogma, corruption and conflict.
It has become nothing more than Chinese whispers.

I simply try to live a decent life, love my family, and respect your right to believe in whatever you wish.
I do not need a "god" or church for that.

We are all victims of the age old battle tactic... Divide and conquer.

Every civilization has been "taught" to believe in something. The early tribes of man were separated by great distances, with little or no contact, and each grew in their own way. Each developed their own traditions, cultures, myths, legends and belief systems. Most "peasants" were uneducated, while those in power reserved education only for the rich. Perpetuating their hold over the "little people" through ignorance.

Every civilization throughout history has had their share of belief systems. There have been thousands of religions throughout our history. However...

Religion was created by humanity, and unscrupulous people have always taken advantage of the power of religion. We also allow politicians to control our lives in much the same way. The people have been divided in so many ways, and for so long that we stay weak and ripe for conquest. Governments and religions alike, seek to strip us of our rights and dictate how we can live our lives, while fanatics on all fronts seek to destroy us if we will not convert or conform to their particular belief system. The more chaos they create in the world, the more restrictions they place on us, the more their power grows. It is a slippery slope. It is also not the first time the Human Race has headed down the path of destruction.

The people do not start the wars, their leaders do. Leaders become so consumed with their own wealth and power that nothing else matters to them except increasing their own wealth and power, and the people have always been used as pawns, or cannon fodder for the rich and powerful.

They start the wars that we are ordered to fight. They create the chaos that we are required to clean up, and too many people accept their fates willingly, because that is what they were taught to believe.

It is their "patriotic" or "spiritual" duty. In the name of the king... Or, for "god and country".

Religious or political corruption, or a combination of both, has been the downfall of every great society. Both breed chaos, fear and hatred of everything that is different.

There are almost 7 billion people living on this planet, yet we are controlled by only a few thousand despots. They can't seem to learn from the mistakes of the past. Or, perhaps this is all by their own design...They continue to profit, and increase their power bases while the people suffer and die for nothing.

We are the paradox. We must get past this "conform or die" mentality and seek peace. If not, we will destroy ourselves.

It is time for the people of the world to speak out against tyranny in all forms and embrace freedom.

It is time for the meek to actually inherit the Earth. Our leaders have failed us.

Many different sources suggest that we are approaching the end times. But, the end of what?

The end of Humanity itself, or simply the end of an era of ignorance?

Armageddon or epiphany... The choice is ours.

Even an animal inherently knows "something" else made or is responsible for all the stuff it's sensing.

Hold on a minute - you know what an animal is thinking? Seriously?

Can't walk through walls; can't be everywhere at the same time; something is pushing me towards the ground; etc

You mean sort of like the laws of thermodynamics?

Again, accidents can't make productive rules.

Define "accident". If you mean things that happen without someone to guide them, why not? Matter seeks stability (see aforementioned laws of thermodynamics). In stability, there are patterns. In patterns there is life.

It's like how without research, we don't even know how our bodies work, but we know they work based on "someone else's intelligence / work."

False on a number of levels. We actually have a pretty good idea how our bodies work, and how they developed over the millennia. Science has not determined that the result is the product of "someone else's intelligence / work". That's wishful thinking on your part.

Furthermore, those aspects that we do not yet understand do not point to some outside intelligence as the only alternative. That argument comes from the fallacy of argument from ignorance.

DNA for example is an incredible set of instructions for a huge amount of "someone else's" intelligence.

Argument from ignorance. Also, see aforementioned patterns.

If you would like to argue that the Church should update its dogma to better fit currently scientific knowledge, I have no argument with you. You, and the Church, can do as you like. If you are going to argue relgious dogma from a scientific perspective, however, you'll need to do a little better.

All atheists become atheists by telling Christ that "By no means will I believe unless you do miracles.

Nonsense. I was a practicing Wiccan when I became atheist. I realized I had never seen any evidence of the supernatural whatsoever and stopped believing in all of it.

Why should I care about Jesus anymore than I care about Zeus. They both have the same chance of being real......none!

By the way, logic dictates...

Seriously? Show me any logic that you have presented?

As others have noted, you are an atheist too, well almost. You simply need to take the last step.

@JackOL-1666973:

Invoking logic then throwing out such a obviously emotionally provocative statement at the end of your comment is rather disingenuine.

That being said, your only one step from a theist. You only need to pick one to believe in. I am saying this not because I believe any diety is existant *I don't know if one does* but to illustrate just how that last comment is pure nonsense and base baiting.

Wraith -

Invoking logic then throwing out such a obviously emotionally provocative statement at the end of your comment is rather disingenuine.

No, that's being witily sarcastic.

your only one step from a theist.

But which one to choose? There are soooo many gods, soooo little time.

I don't know if one does* but to illustrate just how that last comment is pure nonsense ...

No one knows if the Green Lantern exists either, but why posit its existence? The pure nonsense is to suggest the existence of something there is no evidence for, let alone pay homage to it.

...and base baiting.

Seriously? Perhaps you did not read this -

All atheists become atheists by telling Christ that "By no means will I believe unless you do miracles. So, like give me all the gold in California -- yeah to me -- or I'm just gonna do whatever I want in this world, right or wrong! And then I will have my excuse ready if I do find there is Fair Afterlife Judgment in my Afterlife. Yeah!" Of course, Christ is still one step ahead of them all by saying "By no means will you believe unless you see miracles" --John 4:48. Yeah! So, I still think Christ said everything right. Yeah!

In conclusion: You atheists would definitely be believers if you witnessed miracles. -- As believers believe without miracles.

By the way, logic dictates that no one is exempt from Fair Afterlife Judgment just because they don't believe in It! Me, I PRAY that I suffer equally (in either my Afterlife or my present life) for my wrongs against those who I haven't been able to locate and make restitution to.

@JackOL:

No, that's being wittily sarcastic.

No, it's called using tired cliched lines in an attempt to illict a emotional response. When last I check regurgation is not witty. That comment wasn't even particularly witty when Dawkins uttered it anyway.

But which one to choose? There are soooo many gods, soooo little time.

Flip a coin? :D

No one knows if the Green Latern exists either, but why posit it's existance? The pure nonsense is to suggest the existance of something there is no evidence for, let alone pay homage to it.

If you'd care to actually address the comment in the correct context we can move forward. If not. Meh.

Seriously? Perhaps you did not read this -

Ah, so that comment is supposed to change the fact you made a often used, nonsense, and baiting comment eh? How so praytell? Magic?

And once again, do please try to keep the conversation in it's proper contexts. Makes you sound insane that you cannot.

No, it's called using tired cliched lines

Am not. Are too.

Good argument.

Flip a coin? :D

Agreed. That's all it takes to give in to myths. I'm not playing.

If you'd care to actually address the comment in the correct context we can move forward.

What was posted is fine. Nonsense has been addressed.

Ah, so that comment is supposed to change the fact you made a often used, nonsense, and baiting comment eh?

Oh, yeah. I forgot.

Am not. Are too.

@JackOL-1666973:

Agreed. That's all it takes to give in to myths. I'm not playing.

Which really illustrates your lack of understanding. Is it intentional or deficiency is my wondering. Also, problem being, labeling it or anything really as a myth or anything else is nothing more than a semantic game. All stories contain an element of truth to differing degrees you see and where-in that kernal of "truth" is contained is largely a subjective judgment call.

Am not. Are too.

Good argument.

Ah. So you cannot see the fallacy in such a statement then I take it? Critical thought, it's a good thing. Cue rant about a god I do not believe in. :D

What was posted is fine. Nonsense has been addressed.

Not hardly. Though what you said does largely go in that direction when put into the larger context of the conversation. That is the attraction of deflection. Which is really all you're trying to do.

Oh, yeah. I forgot.

Am not. Are too.

Ah, so if a person, even if they are living in a mansion. They are just one step away from homelessness hm? To consistantly use that little bit of silliness. Like I said, ciritical thought, it's a good thing sir.

Wraith -

I'm not interested in playing your ad hominem games.

Instead, I suggest you go play with yourself.

@JackOL-1666973:

From the guy who accused me of being part of a conspiracy against him none the less. That's classic. :D

True. It's evidence we would require, not miracles.

Yet you claim to have the one true interpretation of the bible. I have to give you credit, you know that many Christians have a problem with the Paulian warped view of sexuality, so you're making up a new religion with you as its prophet which acknowledges basic human sexuality. You might convert some Christians, but you won't have much luck with atheists or agnostics, though. We're not going to worship you.

I'm saying the only possible evidence you would accept would be miracles.

No. Simply because I witness something for which I have little to no explanation does not equate to a change in belief.

Abandoning critical thought because of something unexplained?

I'm saying the only possible evidence you would accept would be miracles. And, again, Jesus stated the same.

Not me. Parlor tricks are not very convincing to a skeptic. Now if you have some kind of peer-reviewed scientific study proving a god exists I'd love to take a look at that.

I saw Penn and Teller turn water to wine. I don't pray to them.

Ah, another "false prophet." Do you know Migs, perchance? Good luck getting today's religious leaders to acknowledge your truths - good luck even getting them to read this. BTW, I wouldn't believe your "research" whether or not the Church told me it was. If you had credible scientific evidence, that would be different.

Rather inspiring, but could have been my imagination. It was uniquely powerful though.

First, sorry for the loss of your wife. Glad to see you're rational enough to realize this 'miracle' may have been your imagination, seems the most logical to me.

Second, I'm not shocked by your findings that oppose Focus on the Family, you're not the first to find a 'sexier' Jesus than is popularly known. Any number of sects past and present preach open love, though most often the majority of the sex is for the dear leader of said sect...Jim Jones and David Koresh spring to mind though not all of these sects have ended as badly as those two. The Bible is long enough and vague enough that nearly any position can find support within so it's not surprising that people reading the same book can conclude that it's telling them to be prudes while others conclude it's telling them to get their groove on.

Then, after finding many accusations of early Christian sex orgies, Bacchus and Eros in early Christian iconography (they used pagan art before they developed their own)

Bacchus or Dionysus share a number of traits with Jesus so he made a perfect choice for early quasi-pagan/Christians. Like Jesus, Dionysus died as was reborn. Dionysus was the god of wine which also fit perfectly with Jesus who was also associated with wine.

The Golden Rule is what I go by - and it doesn't require belief in any faith system, nor does it preclude such belief. It far predates Jesus.

So, Jesus says it's OK to eat fish - but I shouldn't eat fish because he says it's OK? Wow. You've managed to twist the bible in a whole new way.

I wouldn't say your logic is flimsy - I haven't seen any logic from you to judge one way or the other. I give it a thumbs up for the entertainment value, however, and you might just be able to start a new Christian sect if you start directing your message to religious people instead of agnostics or atheists.

"Fear of God" is not the "only" thing that keeps people from stealing, murdering, etc. -- That's the absurd assertion and redirecting tangent.

Really? Because your comment "or I'm just gonna do whatever I want in this world, right or wrong!" seems to suggest the opposite.

Yeah, I know, you're another atheist that actually thinks you've never hurt an innocent person.

Huh. Did you actually read what I said when I stated "I try not to wrong people in the first place, and if I do wrong someone by accident and am unable to make it up to them, I pay it forward, doing nice for someone else in the hopes that they will do the same for someone else." That implies that I have hurt people before, and I always try to make up for it, either to them or someone else.

you atheists

Okay, again, stop it. Atheists are not a group, we don't share opinions, so stop treating us all the same or your points become meaningless.

If God knows what I know, then He'd know that a whole lot more can be accomplished in this world when we work together instead of against each other.

At least we agree on this, but I fail to see how singling out atheists and portraying all of them as selfish, immoral people is going to promote cooperation.

But, He can restrict certain souls from entering Heaven fully. -- That's the only way Heaven can be "perfect", and how God can assure truly righteous souls of it.

And I am assuming that an atheist can never be considered 'righteous' by your definition, though correct me if I am wrong.

Because of my "equal suffering" prayer, I try even more to not wrong others.

Even more? More than who? More than me? More than you otherwise would? How can you even measure something like that?

Logic says that it'd be a much better world if everyone was taught to pray the same, instead of all the opposite selfish praying sentiments.

Yeah, most religions would agree with you on that, but most of them would also say that their religion is the one that everyone should be taught to follow. What makes your's so special?

I do appreciate your objections, but most of it I've explained before either at my older articles or my website.

Well sorry, I think it's a bit arrogent to assume or expect that everyone has already read all of your other articles. So forgive me if I only address this particular article.

Again, try to only argue my points: try to not stereotype me with all that fallacy we have all been taught at church, intended just to make the rich man richer.

Am I stereotyping you? I'm sorry if that is how it came across, I was trying to simply respond to what you said. Given that you are righting an article that assumes all atheists think the same way, I think it is a bit ironic that you accuse me of stereotyping.

Now that I have responded to your reply, let me elaborate my thoughts: I do not think that belief in god is a bad thing, nor that the fear of hell/desire of heaven somehow invalidates a religious person's good acts. I am only trying to argue that a lack of belief in god is not arrogance as you seem to be claiming, nor does it keep one from being a moral, just person. There are good and evil people of every faith, and good and evil atheists as well. I do not believe in god for a number of reasons, beyond simply the fact that I see no evidence of his or her existence. For example, I find the number of conflicting religions to be so staggering that it would be impossible to pick which one to follow even if I wanted to. I also am not inclined to believe in any religion that believes all that do not follow it shall be punished, as such a rule does not sound at all like the law of a benevolent god, and more like that of a tyrant. I could also find easily a dozen problems with Christianity simply by looking at Genesis, but you get the idea. I choose not to believe in god for my own reasons, and they are not selfish or arrogent. And I find it rather galling when someone tries to suggest otherwise.

The golden rule predates Christainity, is present in every major religion, and is entirely non-religious in nature. It's hardly useful in promoting one religion over another.

I never said I believe in "faith alone."

Without miracles, a.k.a. a demonstration of the supernatural, all that's left is faith. If you've got some other justification for your belief outside of faith feel free to dazzle us with it.

Jesus wouldn't be the name He is today if it wasn't for the early miracle beliefs.

Muhammed has attributed to him many miracles and has the same size following as Christ. Buddha also is credited with many supernatural accomplishments and has a huge following. Through mutual exclusion at most one of those religions is right, making tales of miracles that date back thousands of years clearly unreliable. To believe in one miraculous ancient tale over another in the absence of evidence it's all faith. It's okay to believe by faith alone, I'm just tired of the errant claims by religious groups that their beliefs are based on evidence.

He mandated the golden rule for salvation in Matt. 25:34-46. Right there I'm telling you something in the Bible that you're likely not going to hear anywhere else.

Except as I've already indicated, the Golden Rule is a nearly universal theological moral, present in every major religion, and predating Christianity by millenia. You most certainly will hear it elsewhere.

And, I'm convinced I'm the only living person on top of the subject. All you people's stereotype assumptions just further convince me I'm really special.

That statement speaks for itself. One thing I learned long ago, in a world of seven billion people, no matter how smart you think you are regarding a subject, there's nearly always someone more knowledgeable out there.

TGN

I'm just trying to establish at this article that the reason atheists don't believe is mainly because God failed the miracle test, and how degrading that excuse really is

Okay then let's hear your argument. So far you have made only claims.

Here is how I would make the thoughtful aspect of your argument:

• Atheists do not believe in a deity because there is insufficient evidence of its existence.
• A bonafide miracle which is somehow directly (formally and objectively) linked to a deity would be evidence of a deity.
• Most atheists would follow the evidence as proof that the deity exists and ipso fact technically be theists.

Now the terms 'miracle' and 'deity' need to be qualified. What makes a bonafide miracle and how do we distinguish a deity from an advanced alien intelligence?

Jesus also paralleled Horus & Quazequtal(SP?) of the Egyptians & Mayans respectfully

There are other "mystery" religion deities that compare with Jesus

Like Buddhism. He most likely studied with some and copied the meanings. Get a book that parallels the sayings of both then ask yourself who said them first. Jesus didn't come up with anything new and his followers ignore his teaching. He was a failure.

The mythology of Jesus was copied from older 'crucified savior born of a virgin' ones. Now think for yourself and see if you can figure out what those all were truly referring to. It was not a man.

Actually, it's polytheism disguised as monotheism. You must have forgotten about the Father, the Holy Spirit and Satan + 1 makes 4!

Actually, it's polytheism disguised as monotheism. You must have forgotten about the Father, the Holy Spirit and Satan + 1 makes 4!

Bingo! And it's not even a very good disguise. As you point out even ignoring the whole 3 for 1 god thingy there's still Satan and all the other angels making up the Christian pantheon. Some Christians also endow Saints with divine powers too.

Same arguments from others I've already refuted that I'm having to repeat, different day.

You have refuted nothing. You have posted another anti-atheist screed that does nothing but show your ignorance about atheism.

No, neenie - this one is different than most. This guy proclaims himself a prophet and says he personally is more special than anyone!

This guy proclaims himself a prophet and says he personally is more special than anyone!

Right. Great pick-up line. I wonder if there is another golden rule that I haven't heard of. The one I know isn't the one the "prophet" practices.

logical absurdity eh?